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I have an 'abstract' question for yuz...


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#1 InvisibleCat007

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 07:30 PM

There's this thing I keep seeing...this is purely abstract. I'm wondering if any of you have encountered this idea before. Is there a 'name' for this?

 

It deals with polarities where something is polarized in two different ways. Without discussing specifics....I'll illustrate it in a quadrant like this:

 

A  a

B  b

 

..or something like that..

 

The way I think of it, is instead of 'A' being equal and opposite of 'B', A is equal and 'half-opposite' of B.

 

To give an example of one of many situations where this idea could come into play. Consider two strangers interacting for the first time....if one person made some kind of comment to the other where the reaction should be predictable....but instead the comment could be interpreted two different ways. Meaning the person has options....the outcome of the conversation isn't strictly cause and effect....there is free-play involved also. Not sure if that's a good example but I hope it sort of illustrates the situation in some way.

 

It may sound kind of strange but I'm wondering if any of you have heard of this idea before (the two polarities of one thing)?  Does anyone have anything to say about this?


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My one eye is closed so I can keep an eye on myself. The other eye remains cracked open so I can keep an eye on you. For you are beautiful and someone must hold a space for you to shine and live in complete freedom when you will not see. What this means in literal context is this: Each of my two eyes are looking 'at you' and 'for you'. – Dustin Strong



#2 Likliksnek

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 11:17 PM

Home-Alone-Blink.gif

 

Sorry Flame, I'm not sure I get your question. Especially the AB ab thing. 2 (or n) possible outcomes for the same situation sounds like quantum mechanics, Schrödingers cat and so on, but somehow I think you don't mean that.

 

And what do you mean by "half opposite"?

 

To your example: When a person says to the other "You're looking blue" the other can say "yea I'm really sad" or he could say "I'm going for the smurf-look".

Something like that? Ofc there are a thousand more answers to that remark.

 

Confusing, yet interesting! ;)

cheers

Claudia


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#3 InvisibleCat007

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 12:35 AM

Home-Alone-Blink.gif

 

Sorry Flame, I'm not sure I get your question. Especially the AB ab thing. 2 (or n) possible outcomes for the same situation sounds like quantum mechanics, Schrödingers cat and so on, but somehow I think you don't mean that.

 

And what do you mean by "half opposite"?

 

To your example: When a person says to the other "You're looking blue" the other can say "yea I'm really sad" or he could say "I'm going for the smurf-look".

Something like that? Ofc there are a thousand more answers to that remark.

 

Confusing, yet interesting! ;)

cheers

Claudia

ha ha it's ok I know it can sound confusing and I even have trouble finding the words to describe my thoughts. That's why I asked actually because I'm trying to articulate my thoughts about something and seeing as how clearly we have many brilliant people of different backgrounds in our community...I wondered if it is some kind of known concept and if anyone could help me develop my ideas!

 

The analogy wasn't completely thought out by me. Let me put it this way....what if person (A) always did the opposite of person (B). But neither of them knew what each other would do. In essence, cause and effect vs free-play come together mutually. Where that ties into this thing of '2 polarities' is the idea that there might be instead of 1 opposite....2 different but equal opposite possibilities. Another way to think of this might be to imagine a baloon that somehow has an electical charge. The balloon deflated vs. inflated could be one polarized aspect. It's charge, positive vs. negative could be another polar apsect. I know this isn't realistic...but for now roll with my aproximate example. So if we knew that the balloon must do something equal and opposite...for this is movement of energy....and we expect this imaginary system to always be moving.....would it be rational to expect this imaginary balloon to either inflate if it was empty or flip it's polarity? In this hyposthetical situation....we may only be aware of the 1 polarity of weather it is inflated or empty of air....if we saw it in no state of movement where it was just full and stayed that way....we might think it wasn't changing ....though we could say that is is flipping it's charge of positive and negative...and still meeting our expectation that it will always continually change to something equal and opposite. Again this may be a strange example. Don't take this 'literally'...I'm trying to communicate something abstract.

 

So by the balloon example. We could predict that it would do something equal and opposite....but it had 2 possibilities to meet that assumption. That was the free play. There are a number of very tangiable and interesting situations where this idea comes into play. I don't want explore all of those here in this forum. I'd like to keep this as abstract an idea here as possible and hope I am making a least a little bit of sense! LOL


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My one eye is closed so I can keep an eye on myself. The other eye remains cracked open so I can keep an eye on you. For you are beautiful and someone must hold a space for you to shine and live in complete freedom when you will not see. What this means in literal context is this: Each of my two eyes are looking 'at you' and 'for you'. – Dustin Strong



#4 RazendeR

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 08:59 AM

Time for a pun, you say?


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#5 Schematix

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 02:47 PM

 

 different but equal opposite possibilities

 

Yes.

 

lVHhilE.png

 

I think you're going to need to refine your language a bit before you can successfully convey your message. I understand the idea of ~having an idea~ without being able to articulate it, and it is quite frustrating at times. Keep at it, and good luck. 

 

The only vague likeness I have of what you describe is precisely what Razender linked. I recall in freshman biology when we were playing around with genetics there was a particular problem in my head with how two genes, like XY (and xy, or Xy, xY, etc.) mixed together. I think I resolved to just dismiss the issue, because it was never answered by my teacher. 


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#6 InvisibleCat007

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 09:28 PM

Good point matix! And I'm going to leave this thread alone as I don't see this discussion going anywhere.


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My one eye is closed so I can keep an eye on myself. The other eye remains cracked open so I can keep an eye on you. For you are beautiful and someone must hold a space for you to shine and live in complete freedom when you will not see. What this means in literal context is this: Each of my two eyes are looking 'at you' and 'for you'. – Dustin Strong



#7 robplusplus

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 09:43 PM

Maybe this will help.


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#8 InvisibleCat007

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Posted 16 October 2014 - 07:39 PM

I know I said I was going to leave this topic alone....and not to get all philimisophical on you guys....the general understanding came to me. So I'll share it since I already stated the question. Remember it was 'how can something be polarized in two different ways. It always striked my curiosity because I see this double dichotomy in different things or hints of it.

 

Then I realized there is no better example than ourselves! Of course! I know there is going to be some over-generalization but bare with me....When we are 'emotional'....we feel 'good' or 'bad'. This is a state of swinging between the dichotomy. At the same time there is a dichotomy between being 'emotional' and being 'centered'...calm...unemotional. That is perpendicular shift from being caught in the emotional aspect. The 'centered' unemotional state is not an emptness of feeling however. It has it's own flavor and tone.

 

And that was my main example...One thing that strikes my interest about this idea is the relationship between the polarities. It opens interesting posibilities. Tying this back into for example ...if we could make some kind of 'assumption' about something confidently like 'it will change'....we can perceive and acknoledge that free-play is also involved. But we could also percieve new demesions of a situation or object. So...linking back to the example of emotions....we could say.."well I or this person may feel this way...but most likely that feeling will change....But...the change could happen ....in different ways...(this may sound trivial...but the value of such a realization may be in seeing that one had the option to not be emotional. Again.....it's the relationship of information of the basic idea! It can be a means of seeing situations from a different angle! That's just my contemplation of this train of thought.

 

Anyway...that's my ahaw moment about this question! Again I welcome your thoughts as always! That's all I have to say about this thread question for now. :)


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My one eye is closed so I can keep an eye on myself. The other eye remains cracked open so I can keep an eye on you. For you are beautiful and someone must hold a space for you to shine and live in complete freedom when you will not see. What this means in literal context is this: Each of my two eyes are looking 'at you' and 'for you'. – Dustin Strong



#9 Schematix

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Posted 16 October 2014 - 08:13 PM

I'm still not sure what the question was. :P

 

Good on you for figuring it out. I understand what you are saying now. You could almost say its like a normal 2-axis graph. X represents how excited or calm you are, while Y represents whether it is good or bad.


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#10 InvisibleCat007

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Posted 16 October 2014 - 10:12 PM

The question was something along the lines of "Have you heard of something that is polarized in two different ways? Or is there a name for this?". I think I asked because I was trying to get more clarity on this general idea. In contemplating further though, I have more clarity about this. I brought it to the forum as a topic of 'discussing ideas'.

 

What you said with the x/y graph is close! However...it's not about plotting charts here. And I'm not sure it is something that really has a name. I think it's more of a pattern of thought! It's a pattern.


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My one eye is closed so I can keep an eye on myself. The other eye remains cracked open so I can keep an eye on you. For you are beautiful and someone must hold a space for you to shine and live in complete freedom when you will not see. What this means in literal context is this: Each of my two eyes are looking 'at you' and 'for you'. – Dustin Strong



#11 Nekcalb

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 07:07 PM

Pretty much everything is mearly a matter of perspective. Although you may anticipate someone's reaction to be a certain way, in general they may act as anticipated but likely it would never be 100% exactly as expected.

I suppose as a visual example take a colored sheet of paper, light blue for instance. Now crease the paper and view half flat and the other half at an angle. Although without a doubt you know the paper is one color the flat piece appears light blue while the angled piece appears to be a darker blue simply from the light reflecting differently off the texture of the paper.

Perhaps I am missing the point of your question, but what I am interpreting is its completely possible to have two opposite opinions or feelings on something yet to agree with both.

One other example. Say you were fired from your job, your angry you lost it, your frustrated you have no income, yet your happy you don't have to deal with it, & are relieved that burden of stress is over with.
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#12 Captain_Marko

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 11:03 PM

If you want your head to explode, read around Quantum physics and computing. The previous principle of two states 0/1, on/off, yes/no etc becomes three, 1 billion... infinite.

 

 I can indeed be in two or more "states" simultaneously, as can a cat. Just ask Schrödinger.

 

http://en.wikipedia....hrödinger's_cat


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#13 InvisibleCat007

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 01:48 AM

Pretty much everything is mearly a matter of perspective. Although you may anticipate someone's reaction to be a certain way, in general they may act as anticipated but likely it would never be 100% exactly as expected.

I suppose as a visual example take a colored sheet of paper, light blue for instance. Now crease the paper and view half flat and the other half at an angle. Although without a doubt you know the paper is one color the flat piece appears light blue while the angled piece appears to be a darker blue simply from the light reflecting differently off the texture of the paper.

Perhaps I am missing the point of your question, but what I am interpreting is its completely possible to have two opposite opinions or feelings on something yet to agree with both.

One other example. Say you were fired from your job, your angry you lost it, your frustrated you have no income, yet your happy you don't have to deal with it, & are relieved that burden of stress is over with.

Thanks for your thoughts on this Nekab! I think you are expressing some key things here! Yes things are always a matter of perspective! ..........You may lose your job, as you explain, but how you view the circumstances.... all bets are off! For me it is hard to communicate abstract things because the 'point' isn't necessarily a logic....it's seeing the patterns of ideas.

 

One of my favorite authors, Robert Greene, explains in his book 48 laws of power (calm down!) ....and I'm not quoting word for word because I am going from memory...and I only have the book on audio..but he said something along the lines of..."it doesn't matter if you win an argument. No matter how logical....words basically have little value...they are always subject to interpretation....they are always judged based on how one feels in the moment. Actions and the effect of those actions are of more value. More convincing. ..........actually I'm not sure that ties into what I'm saying here at all. Sorrey maybe I was thinking aloud! .....

 

I like your example of the 'folding the paper'....

 

Have anyone heard of the 'mobius strip"? Take a strip of paper and twist it once. Then tape the ends together. Now you have a loop with the strip. There is also only 1 edge. Cool! There are some interesting things that happen when you cut the strip down the middle legthwise. ......or cut in thirds....etc. I like the mobius strip as an example of alternative ways of seeing things ....Just a food for thought! :)


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My one eye is closed so I can keep an eye on myself. The other eye remains cracked open so I can keep an eye on you. For you are beautiful and someone must hold a space for you to shine and live in complete freedom when you will not see. What this means in literal context is this: Each of my two eyes are looking 'at you' and 'for you'. – Dustin Strong



#14 Likliksnek

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 01:43 AM

The Moebius Strip fascinated me since I was little :) I was a big M.C. Escher fan back then and he has made a beautiful drawing of it and in general plays with breaking up the expected perspective in his work.

 

I think the word "opposite" gives me the trouble here. :) 

Two or more views/sides of the same thing or situation do not have to exclude each other, hence dont have to be the opposite. If you take a detailed painting (say one of Hieronymus Bosch). You can view only parts of the painting and make up different opinions about its mood/quality/meaning, yet its always the same painting.

 

Also I find it difficult to explain any abstract ideas by human behaviours. There are simply so many unknown factors, so many unpredictable reactions and influences that its impossible to compare anything. So your balloon example brought me much closer to what you mean than any interpersonal situation described. :)

 

Have a good monday!

Claudia

xxxx


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#15 stophix

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 04:38 AM

The Moebius Strip fascinated me since I was little :) I was a big M.C. Escher fan back then and he has made a beautiful drawing of it and in general plays with breaking up the expected perspective in his work.

There's a poster of Escher's "Treppauf, treppab" (I don't know the original name) in our family's basement since I'm a little kid. I think it's there because my father works in a sort of architectural environment. It always fascinated me and scared me at the same time.

treppauftreppab.gif

M.C. Escher "Treppauf, treppab"


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#16 InvisibleCat007

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 09:09 PM

The Moebius Strip fascinated me since I was little :) I was a big M.C. Escher fan back then and he has made a beautiful drawing of it and in general plays with breaking up the expected perspective in his work.

 

I think the word "opposite" gives me the trouble here. :)

Two or more views/sides of the same thing or situation do not have to exclude each other, hence dont have to be the opposite. If you take a detailed painting (say one of Hieronymus Bosch). You can view only parts of the painting and make up different opinions about its mood/quality/meaning, yet its always the same painting.

 

Also I find it difficult to explain any abstract ideas by human behaviours. There are simply so many unknown factors, so many unpredictable reactions and influences that its impossible to compare anything. So your balloon example brought me much closer to what you mean than any interpersonal situation described. :)

 

Have a good monday!

Claudia

xxxx

Claudia, there are many interesting points you bring up here!

 

The subject of human behavior is something we can study our entire life and never fully understand. I'm not prepared to explore that subject here or at the moment! The example about the dichotomy of 'emotions' etc....does form a pattern.....a triad. :) However the example was not meant to explain human behavior necessarily or all it's complexities.

 

My private work and the ideas that have sprang from these questions is growing very exciting! I can't hold still! I think I have the tiger by the tail about some fundamental understandings!

 

I want to shine a bright spotlight on your point about the painting....and 'it's always the same painting'!!!!! Let's take that idea and look at another situation. In math......math was never my strongest inclination. I took college Algebra something like 6 or 8 times and still failed at it. However, I LOVE numbers. I love their quality and seeing the relationships and geometry they form. All that are important for me about numbers tends to be 1-9. I can work through abstract problems using only these numbers. I don't care about complex formulas and equations! But I love seeing the patterns of numbers.

 

Anyway, I've digressed....back to the idea about the painting......in the usual application of math....like 224 x 68 or solving aithmatic ...etc...the 'numbers' are static....and the 'function' is movable...dynamic......(subtract this ...carry the number....add this ...functions changes). There is another way to go about math where the function is static and the numbers move around. This is best explained in Marko Rodins 'Vortex Based Mathematics'. The 'key' idea here that is on my mind is the dichotomy of that 1 aspect is static and another aspect is dynamic.

 

From that last idea.....I'm looking at the dichotomy of chaos vs. order. Or Freedom vs. absolute cause and effect. I believe they go together mutually. I don't believe anything is infinitely free but is instead a 'confined freedom'. And nothing is completely absolute without a degree of freedom. These are sweeping generalities...but......

 

Energy moves around hidden nodel points. Or in other words...there always seems to be an underpinning pattern of how energy moves even when things seem completely chaotic. This is no light subject or abstract understanding that has no bearing on tangable situations. It's a window through which to see a door where before there was only a solid impenatrable wall. Specific situations there are many and what is more important are these fundamental ideas! :)

 

I like reading all of you guys's ideas here. I'll have to go for a walk and read more later! :)


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My one eye is closed so I can keep an eye on myself. The other eye remains cracked open so I can keep an eye on you. For you are beautiful and someone must hold a space for you to shine and live in complete freedom when you will not see. What this means in literal context is this: Each of my two eyes are looking 'at you' and 'for you'. – Dustin Strong



#17 InvisibleCat007

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 01:35 AM

I'm going to throw out something here for anyone who's mind turns on to this subject...May it be a 'seed' that may grow into something beautiful for you......I have no intention of dishing out the answer here. But....remember that everything starts with a question! Again this abstract have many applications! ....How can you reconcile something that is both polarized and yet has 'thirds'? A polarized third?


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My one eye is closed so I can keep an eye on myself. The other eye remains cracked open so I can keep an eye on you. For you are beautiful and someone must hold a space for you to shine and live in complete freedom when you will not see. What this means in literal context is this: Each of my two eyes are looking 'at you' and 'for you'. – Dustin Strong



#18 InvisibleCat007

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 01:53 AM

So....my inner 'nerd' is screaming at me lately! I am convinced there is an over-arching gem of something to be gleaned from the general principle of one thing being static while the other has freedom. We saw examples of this idea Claudia's example of the 'picture vs. the perception of it'....There are the examples of math of where 'numbers vs. function'....one remains static while the other has freedom of movement. ....... It can go both ways. .... It could go both ways with the painting example also! ...... There are more examples and many more still. In game design.....the mechanics of the game are static. ..... The actions of the player have some degree of freedom. Minecraft is a great example actually because there is a lot of freedom but it is still a confined freedom in some ways because of certain fixed mechanics.....in fact.........there happens to be a lot of freedom....but there are certain things that are more 'probable' that the player will do based on those fixed mechanics.

 

The point of this thread is, I think, more of a 'food for thought'! I think subtle things in life....can reveal a lot about big things!

 

Ok...so ....one last to appease my inner nerd:

 

Consider something where you have a dichotomy of some sort.........What happens when you realize that there isn't just the one way of viewing it but perhaps other angles ...like Three different axes of viewing the object (X,Y,Z)?

 

If you are saying "huh?"....remember the 'effect' (the effect of actions....or perception) of twisting a strip of paper once and joining the ends together! (mobius stip).....The information changed. It changed into something that had only 1 edge. A manipulation of the variables.

 

It's dangerous to get caught up in the 'context' of where these ideas present themselves because there is a more value in the abstract pattern of the idea. Maybe you see something completely different in a completely different context ....that is not unlike a door opening where there was a solid wall!

 

Information can be the equivilant of energy. It can't be destroyed but ...it can be minipulated in surpriseing ways! And it can be converted in surprising ways also! Like the artist! Or....like the game designer who sets up a situation for you to feel free in....creating a feeling of fun and addiction that could destroy your life if you're not careful!!! ..Or like a solution to something impossible! ...Like many many other things and more!

 

That's kind of where I was going with all this ..Not to go too deep in the pond here....just to see if anyone likes to swim! .. Just a food for thought! :)


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My one eye is closed so I can keep an eye on myself. The other eye remains cracked open so I can keep an eye on you. For you are beautiful and someone must hold a space for you to shine and live in complete freedom when you will not see. What this means in literal context is this: Each of my two eyes are looking 'at you' and 'for you'. – Dustin Strong






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