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#61 Blue_Dragon360

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Posted 23 January 2015 - 10:13 PM

I'm sure I sound like a broken record, but just to make it short and to the point...

I think less travel time is better, because I really miss playing with others on here. I'm not sure what overpowered/too easy even means in a situation like this, it just seems to be imposing difficulty for the sake of it.

I'll shut up now, I just wanted to say my bit about not falling for the attraction of doing it the hard way :P

I see your point, but I do think it's important to retain a little difficulty. As it stands, it's WAYY too hard, but if we just allowed free passage basically anywhere, as with teleporting or personal portals, I think the game would feel too easy (at least for me). It's analogous to "Well, I want to make a blue building, I'll just hack myself 10 stacks of diamond blocks!"

I think the solution with 8 or 12 portals would be best. You'd need to ride the rails every now and again, depending on your location, but it would still greatly reduce the amount of travel time needed.

One possible issue I see with not having all of the stations have portals is that the portal stations would have favored local rail connections, whereas the portal stations would get all of the connections. Not sure how much of an issue that would be, but it's something to consider.
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#62 renic_ixillon

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Posted 23 January 2015 - 10:47 PM

I remember when 60-gig was a survival server!  Those were the days man!

 

The Creative era has been creeping up for some time now.  Ah well, I have my memories!

 

Instant Gratifications FTW! :P


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#63 GreenishTroll

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 06:39 AM

I remember when 60-gig was a survival server!  Those were the days man!

 

The Creative era has been creeping up for some time now.  Ah well, I have my memories!

 

Instant Gratifications FTW! :P

 

I'm curious, what do we have now that makes it unlike the fondly recalled 60G survival server of yesterday?   It's had portals of some kind ever since I have been on it, back to SG4.  I know SG3 had "zones", but the map was smaller, right?  SG4 had portals to personal maps.  SG4 did have the gold based commerce system which I really miss.  I think that helped bring people together.   SG5 got bigger so we sensibly put portals from the outer edges to Central.  SG6 is much bigger and some kind of portal travel seems essential.


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#64 torcido

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 11:15 AM

Back in The Day ™ there was no Wilds, and harvesting things not in each individual's proscribed 'zone' was done by walking out beyond the zone grid into the "Wilderness" (which I believe got occasionally reset after Nekcalb would decide to go on his regular walkabouts and quadruple the map savefile size.)

 

The current progression has slowly gone from small builds of achingly-harvested materials, to easier harvesting (reset Wilds and Nether) allowing for larger builds, meaning progress has been towards pseudo-Creative.  (Remember the Creative map was added there for a while for people who wanted easier builds, but it died off quickly after almost everyone abandoned it.)

 

At one point (SG2 & 3, possibly that interim map we had that never got a number, i forget?), rails really promoted visitation because: 1)  it was done often using other people's branches to tie in your own spur, and 2) most everyone's build areas were small enough to visit in just a few minutes when passing through (except those who 'bought' multiple or larger zones.)  

 

My belief is that group play spiked when we first dropped the isolation of zones in that interim world, but had everything contained tight enough that we kept bumping into each other coming to and fro.  The size of this map isolates so dramatically that the rails don't have the same effect they did before (my closest neighbor's Simon, who I chose to build 'next' to because we've gotten along well for a couple of years now, and yet, he's still 5-10 minutes' walk over).  

Portals could help that, with people specifically 'touring' others' builds, but it would still lend itself to most interaction being quick passes popping in and out of portals.  I'd personally prefer that, as I've hamstrung myself being far enough from portals by rail that I don't have time to gather enough mats in the limited time I have between work, school, and family.  But I don't think it would promote group play on it's own.  (Maybe increased population at any given time, but that's still mostly SSP + chat).  It would promote res runs, since now it might take 20 minutes to get a party together after a death message, but that's still pretty rare.

 

I don't have an answer, except that I think the Wilds/Nether would benefit from going back to one entrance (even if from separate portals on the main map) with 'teamwork' required to build out rails/trails to beaches or taiga or mesa or whatever, and a reduced reset to quarterly or something like that. (Can't dragons just be 'spawned' without needing to reset the entire end? is there no admin command for that?  IMO, they aren't meaningful enough to be worth monthly resets if we could just respawn the thing every couple of weeks for scheduled 'hunts' or something, also promoting the community getting together.)

 

I've wasted enough of your time (and I forgot to even do this while waiting on the rails to get me back to Central.  Doh!)


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#65 GreenishTroll

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 01:42 PM

Not a waste of time.  We should be thinking about what worked and what did not in prior maps.


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#66 Sivcere

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 03:01 PM

 

Snip

 

(Can't dragons just be 'spawned' without needing to reset the entire end? is there no admin command for that?  IMO, they aren't meaningful enough to be worth monthly resets if we could just respawn the thing every couple of weeks for scheduled 'hunts' or something, also promoting the community getting together.)

 

The issue with that is the end grinder might be damaged if we did that, we can always repair it and lure the dragon away from it but it's still a risk.

 

Also we would also have to replace the crystals. 


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#67 Bamfigms

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 03:17 PM

I was going to bring up the issue of arbitrary diffuculty and time sink again with the end grinder.

 

The general consensus is that portals are OK/worth looking into because because all that time adds nothing to the game.

One justification I have heard used (though not needed in my mind) is that it's OK because we don't have a real perma-nether to use for the decreased travel time.

 

I think the same logic should be applied to the end. The end grinder is great, and usually a big part of any survival server.

Resetting the end every month is... not exactly a bad thing, but I realy don't see why it's a good thing either.

 

Unless there is a demand for obsidian and dragon eggs, I suggest a less frequent resetting of the end.

It's a time sink that adds very little to the enjoyment of the game. If a justification is needed for it... well... vanilla MC doesn't reset the end sounds good enough.


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#68 mattdaddy2000

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 06:38 PM

It seems everyone is in agreement that the current structure of the server has become dysfunctional or at least alienating. So, what do we need to do now to move forward? Based on all the discussion it looks like there are three main questions to work out; 1) whether to introduce portal jumps to SG city and where to put them? 2) Do we keep the wilds/nether portals on the outskirts of the map? And 3) how frequently do we reset the wilds, nether, and end? These are all separate issues and perhaps we should decouple them so we don't get mired in a complex decision matrix. If we can achieve consensus on one of these issues then let's just move forward on it and continue to discuss the rest.

My personal preference would be 1) 8 portal jumps to central located where the wilds/nether portals are now, 2) a single wilds/nether portal at central, and 3) I really don't have an opinion on this one.

Overall, anything that leads us into bumping each other more often and having to engage in more conflict resolution due to scarcity of resources or overlapping mines can only be a good thing.
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#69 Blue_Dragon360

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 07:47 PM

Snip

Some great points  :)

 

1). My personal preference would be 12 portals in a checkerboard pattern around the map, like this:

 

qpooOjr.png

 

Red = Portal station

Black = No portal station

 

This would ensure that central is only one ride away at any given station, maximum, and you'd only have to ride the rails twice in a worst-case scenario (think WNW to S, for example).

 

2). I would also like a nether/wilds portal at central.

 

3). I don't care very much, but before the rail system was set up we exhausted central wilds pretty quickly. I would say keep it at a month. If 1.8 is coming anytime soon I don't think the end matters, since the new 1.8 endergrinders are insanely easy to set up (comparatively) but if we still have a while to wait I'd say don't reset it. 


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#70 fishbrine

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 08:04 PM

dcc528dfa9.jpg

If you stare at the center red dot for 30 seconds and slowly rotate your phone, it appears to suddenly jump and rotate ... Oh... Wait. My phone is doing that. Never mind.

Awkward.

So, how's the portal discussion going?
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#71 Blue_Dragon360

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 08:35 PM

If you stare at the center red dot for 30 seconds and slowly rotate your phone, it appears to suddenly jump and rotate ... Oh... Wait. My phone is doing that. Never mind.


I'm not ashamed to admit I accidentally spent 45 seconds doing that before reading the rest of your post... And rotation lock was on
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#72 fishbrine

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 10:09 PM

HA.

 

Got ya.


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#73 Zellcos

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Posted 25 January 2015 - 09:14 AM

I built a nice house to contain our wilds portal about five resets ago, and only about six people saw it. No one had comments, no one said anything, just kind of assumed "Okay, someone built a portal house. Cool."

 

When we were first building the central hub we had a huge village just above the water, where we all pitched in and did something. Someone made food, someone chopped wood, others were mining ore down in the depths for FT. Knox and the initial rail system.

 

Now I don't see a soul when I go into the wilds, I haven't talked to anyone past "Hi, how are you" in about the eight times I've logged on since school started. I've been wanting to check out Mattdaddy's build since he finished his cubes about four months ago, but I haven't. Because it's on the other side of the map.

 

I've reached the point where building alone is more productive (in my head) than being social and visiting. Which, being a multiplayer server, is a step in the wrong direction.

 

 

I want our central wilds portal back. I don't care how far I have to go for resources. I want to see other peoples creations on the wilds map, because I know there are more kind hearted people who build safehouses like I did, and I know they want the same comments I wanted.

 

Plus, one central wilds portal is nicer for Ray, so he doesn't have to zoom around each month and find the other eight portals. Technically it's his job to do so, and I'm pretty sure he would do it regardless, but less work for Ray = happy. Happy Ray = Happy server.

 

I haven't been on in awhile, but I voice my unofficial vote for one central wilds portal, with the checkerboard system set up accounting for a C-Portal at least one station away.

 

I also vote against everyone getting their own personal portal, because even I like a little privacy. Insert Renic lawn quote here.


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#74 GreenishTroll

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Posted 25 January 2015 - 10:24 AM

Wilds is one thing, nether is another.  If you want to find glowstone, one portal to the nether makes it pretty tough.


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#75 Schematix

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Posted 25 January 2015 - 11:01 AM

I'd had nearly forgotten about this thread, but Beeps and myself recently developed an automatic transportation system. I doubt any of you would like to redo the train stations considering how much work you've all put into them, but I think a lot of you would like the appeal of this design. Perhaps we can save this in our back pocket for when SG7 swings around?

 

http://imgur.com/a/oTDsq#0

 

Note, the current state you see it in is only a prototype. A proof of concept, if you will. Basically how it works is you place a chestcart and fill it with certain items. When you launch your minecart to go to the next station your chest minecart will travel in front of you. When you arrive at the next station a hopper will pull out a single item from the chestcart, and depending on what item that is, it will switch the tracks ahead of you in the station to redirect you to either a different station, or to make you stop. This would allow players to set and forget their routes, so they wouldn't have to get off at every single station then get back on. 

 

To help explain I will use an example, look at the pictures in the album to get a better visual of what I'm saying.

 

Say you're at the southern station and you want to go to the north eastern station. That would take you 3 hops to get all the way there (South to Central, Central to North, North to North East). Now with this train station you wouldn't have to stop at every station along the way. You would place your chestcart and put in two diamonds and an iron ingot, diamonds would be in the first slot, iron ingot in the second slot. When you're ready to go, you press the button and you and your chestcart ship off. The chestcart will pass over a hopper in front of you and have a diamond taken out of the cart. The station then thinks 'Oh, I got a diamond, this must mean this person wants to go north!' and the station will redirect you to the northern line which will lead you to central station. This will repeat at central station. Once you're at the northern station the station will take out the iron ingot of the chestcart and think 'Ah, this person wants to go east now.' and it will redirect you in the eastern direction towards your final destination of the north eastern station. 

 

TL;DR You pre-program a route using items inside of chestcarts that will allow you to AFK an entire trip.

 

Also, a lot of objections to this design have already been considered. We are using 5 out of the 6 pieces of possible data we could give the stations. The 5 pieces of data are NORTH, SOUTH, EAST, WEST, and STOP. Each direction can be represented by any item, however we have STOP represented as a lack of items. Hoppers have 5 inventory slots, so we could potentially filter a fifth item, but we don't have any use for that as of now. However, the last piece of data could be used for shipping chestcarts full of items between stations, but this would require a large redesign of the current machine. 

 

All incoming traffic would be filtered through the same line, so we wouldn't have to duplicate this machine 4 times.

 

We don't have a cart collection system setup, we're a bit undecided on that. In my opinion I would recommend that everyone carried a single minecart and chestcart in their Enderchest, but there's other options to this.


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Smile! :)


#76 Blue_Dragon360

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 07:15 PM

TL;DR You pre-program a route using items inside of chestcarts that will allow you to AFK an entire trip.

While this is a really cool idea, and I would have been all over this when SG6 was starting up, after seeing how incredibly long the rails take to ride I still think portals are a better option. I just can't foresee myself taking a half an hour to ride minecarts from one corner of the map to another, even if I don't have to check back every 4 minutes.

 

Also, as you mentioned, I don't think anyone really wants to redo all of the stations. Even if/when we do SG7, I would much rather portals (unless the map size decreases drastically). I voted for rails at the start of the map, but I never realized how slow they really were.

 

Nice design though! I might use something like this as transportation around my city that seems to never get bigger than one building. :)

 

Now, if they ever make MC's engine better so it can support faster minecarts... Now we're talking!


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#77 torcido

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 08:57 PM

Zellicos' right about the initial SG6Wilds.  That was great.  Absent the necessary 'start from scratch' cooperation, I don't know how we recapture it all.  Having group transit builds to reach distant biomes (or, in the Nether, to open up new areas for harvesting), along with a reduced reset to keep them around longer (or perhaps not) might help some.

 

I think rails are getting a bad rap due to the size of this place and the grid nature.  Nek had a nice rail set on one iteration (SG3? 4?) that encircled a moderately active SixtyCity on a grid, but it worked because it was relatively small (in comparison to what we have now).  

 

Alternatively,  in SG5 I rode Ori's rails from the local portal to get back to my base every time, even though running/pearling was a little faster, because it was a winding, beautiful ride that showed off terrain and popped with spectacular views of his builds, changing with day versus night, and with every texture pack change, not to mention all of his progress and new additions.  It was fun each run.

 

He had even added a 'private' spur resembling what we have in the stations on any given line now, separate from the public spur at the portal, to let his neighbors tie into his track.  If I'd been any less lazy then, I would have completed a tie-in that would have been a great way to travel each time, watching the views rather than alt-tab-ing to surf the web.  The current grid bypasses things like that, with many people nowhere near the rails and those who are building up immediately adjacent to the tracks (*cough* N/FN *cough*) being a bit out of the way for so many others.  

 

I think the grid was designed for convenient travel along shortest distances to capture the maximum map footprint in the easiest build.  It was not set up for 'fun' rides (though some designers did work wonders on the platform, stations, and bridges themselves).  And yet, as the complaints here attest, the travel isn't that convenient due to the distances.  And, without the 'fun' once the platform spectacle wears off, what's the point?    I say promote travel on the build map to encourage visits to everyone but Renic, then restrict travel and reduce resets on the mats maps to promote teamwork with group runs & organic long-distance transit builds.  

 

(Says the old guy who doesn't have two minutes to rub together.)


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#78 GreenishTroll

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 09:08 PM

SG5 had a suprising number of privately built railways.


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#79 renic_ixillon

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 09:50 PM

Petty people are so  .  .  . petty! :)


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#80 Macflea

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 09:56 PM

For what it's worth I agree with Renic. (Should I be worried?) Reduce travel time on the main map and reduce resets on the wilds and nether so if there are only central portals we can have time to go further out.
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