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#1 GarrikP

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 01:00 PM

We seem to be losing momentum this week. Let's all band together over the next few days and finish the pirate town, getting the simplest project off the to-do list.

We will need a good amount of (cobble)stone & lumber for this, let's just leave most of it as cut wood for now.

I do have a redstone idea for this as well.
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<Profound statement>



#2 RayvenNightsong

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 02:03 PM

We seem to be losing momentum this week. Let's all band together over the next few days and finish the pirate town, getting the simplest project off the to-do list.

We will need a good amount of (cobble)stone & lumber for this, let's just leave most of it as cut wood for now.

I do have a redstone idea for this as well.



I didn't realize there was a timeline or a boss in the "community" projects. If that's the way they are going to be I don't think I will enjoy them.

Community projects should not become obligations or high priorities. That is exactly why I mentioned, numerous times, that no one should be pressured to participate in community projects, or to finish according to someone Else's timeline. It shouldn't matter if it takes us six months to complete a map. Who cares if we're having fun? If we aren't having fun and it feels like it is a job, we shouldn't be doing it.

If players feel uncomfortable or guilty for doing things other than working on whatever the community project is at the time, then we shouldn't be doing them. They will cause conflict and take the fun out of playing. The whole point of them was to have fun playing together, not to finish whatever it is we're building by a deadline. There should be no deadline.

Garrik, I know you are very excited about the amusement park and can't wait for it to be finished, but if you get pushy, you will make players regret taking part in community projects and they may never want to join another one. Secondly, potential players may be scared away because they get a vibe that they are going to pressured in to doing what other players want them to do. That's not how we want this server to be. Above all else it should be fun and we should do things when the mood strikes us and not because we're expected to do it.
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#3 GarrikP

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 02:43 PM

No, there isn't a deadline or time frame, but there's other people waiting to do their own as well. It's not a thing of pushing, it's just a thing of keeping momentum and keeping our server-mates in consideration for their wished projects.

The only one causing conflict right now is you Rayven. I noticed a few people haven't been on at all this week, and this was just a gentle nudge, not "the man" being overbearing and pushy.
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<Profound statement>



#4 RayvenNightsong

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 06:13 PM

We obviously have very different ideas about what a 'community" project is.

Look, I am going to lay it all out there Garrik. The reason your post pissed me off is because of what you said to me the other day. I told you I was working on the underwater squid tunnel and you said " I don't know what your planning but I envisioned a spiral structure with rooms branching off in many directions" (or something to that affect). To be honest that really offended me. I bit my tongue and didn't speak my mind at that time, but it really bothered me. Then I saw your post telling us to hurry up and finish the pirate area and it really rubbed me the wrong way. I feel like you're kind of being a bossy ass.

You seem to think this is YOUR project and we are your worker bees. Maybe a few of you got together and decided what you wanted done, but not everyone was there and from my perspective it looks like you are bossing everyone around. It doesn't feel like a community project. it feels like Garrik's project. Which would be fine if that was understood from the beginning. I thought it was going to be very different and now I am disappointed about what our 'community" project is turning out to be. I may be the only one bold enough to say something but if you keep bossing people around I am sure I won't be the only one feeling that way.

You posted pictures in this thread of how YOU wanted bridges built. Why do you feel that things should be built the way you want them built? Why does someone have to build things you think are attractive? Why can't someone build a bridge in a way they want to build a bridge? Why do you get to decide what is "fugly" and what is not? Even if someone's stuff isn't as pretty as you want, what does it matter? The point is to have fun, or so I thought. If you are going to judge other player's stuff as "fugly" then you shouldn't call this a community project.

Even if someone builds stuff you think is ugly, what does it matter? Do you not understand what community actually means? In my opinion a community project should be one in which each player feels they can build what they want without feeling like they have to build what someone else told them to or build to someone Else's standards. Players should feel free to use their own creativity and not go by someone Else's blueprint, even if their stuff is considered "fugly" by snobby people. If someone builds a boat that isn't up to your standards what does it matter? Why do you care more about the final product than a person? I could care less if the whole project is ugly, as long as everyone had fun. I care about people, not stuff, especially not make believe stuff in a game. Why boss people around or risk hurting feelings over something so utterly unimportant as a game?


If this is the way community projects are going to be, I will not be joining any more. If someone else proposes one in which we just happily build what we want without being judged or told what to build, then I will perhaps take part in a project like that. Rough guidelines are okay but telling people exactly how and what to build isn't, and redoing people's stuff because you think it's ugly is not acceptable to me.
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#5 Nekcalb

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 11:18 PM

If i may intervene here before this discussion gets out of control, Rayven & Garrik, i tend to agree with and disagree with both of you, but i am not going to pick sides, this projects intentions were to have an enjoyable place to build together as a community, and a nice place to show off once completed, i know what you are referring to with the rebuilding of a certain aspect of the park Rayven, but this was not Garrik's decision on his own, several of us had the opinion that the structure was out of place and even the person who originally built such structure agreed to having it redone. It was not a spur of the moment decision that Garrik took upon his self. I had someone make a suggestion about the project i am working on, i said i would think about it, which i have and i intend on doing something similar but to my personal taste on such.

Rayven there is nothing wrong with making an opinion about how something looks in a community project in my opinion, but to modify something drastically without the original builders consent would be wrong, but that is not what happened here. If someone wants to build a giant dirt box and cover it with 5000 torches in their zone and call it the Taj Mahal then so be it, but if they want to do the same with others involved expect a little resistance to the idea, i personally don't want my name associated with a giant dog turd if someone built one, so i would speak up and inform the person i don't like their feces project even if they called it art. As far as the bridges go i am sure that they were intended as suggestions, and not as "THIS IS WHAT THEY WILL LOOK LIKE OR ELSE!!!!! RARRRWWW >;| "

And Garrik i know you are just trying to take the lead on organizing the parks projects, but at times it does feel like your being a little bossy as Rayven has just mentioned. I know this is not your intention, but if i may make a suggestion, relax a little, don't worry about the progress of the project. If nothing gets done during the week so be it, as long as the project is still actively being worked on a little then it wont get the abandoned treatment. If your concerned about getting something built "build it" if your concerned about getting materials collected "collect them". I have done both thus far for the projects i have been working on, including reducing my personal resources significantly, but i am fine with that, you need cobble? Ask and I'll tell you to go grab a bunch from my chests, it's not like it has any real life value.
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Refusing to allow people to be paid less than a living wage preserves to us our own market. There is absolutely no use in producing anything if you gradually reduce the number of people able to buy even the cheapest products. The only way to preserve our markets is to pay an adequate wage. -- Eleanor Roosevelt


#6 GarrikP

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 07:22 AM

I have ideas and I share them.

When you started the aquarium I shared my opinion. I never once said "Rayven, you should build it like this because that's what I want", and it seems that's how you took my idea.

I talk, I share ideas, that's part of being a community.

Also, the pictures?! Those were for me, I found bridges that *I* wanted to build, and posting them here was for me to have easy access to them without searching them back up again. I didn't ask or tell anyone else to do anything about them, except to ask for any donations if there were any to be had.
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<Profound statement>



#7 RayvenNightsong

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 09:38 AM

Nek, I can understand your point of view but I still think it is crappy to redo someone's stuff because it is isn't up to standards. Maybe it is because I am a mother or it is just my nature, but I could care less if someone builds a giant dirt square and covers it with torches and calls it Taj Mahal. If they were actually trying to be creative I would never discourage them. The only time I would say something negative would be if they built something morally offensive that might hurt others. In my opinion the encouragement and growth of a person is more important than the final product. Someone could be a great artists in the making but have that ability squashed and murdered because of a few judgmental remarks from someone who didn't even realize what damage they were doing.

I am extremely overprotective and when I feel someone's feelings are being trampled, or even that there is a potential for hurt feelings, I get really pissed and jump in there and defend them. Maybe this situation wasn't as big of a deal as I thought it was, but when I heard someone's stuff was going to be redone because it wasn't up to standards I got really offended and felt that was an abusive and elitist way of thinking. I still think community projects should be friendly and encouraging of individuality, whether someone builds what someone Else considers and eyesore or not. It is just a game and people should be more important than what a project ends up looking like. Plus, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and what you think is ugly someone else might think is attractive. We have no right to judge each others efforts in the community projects unless someone goes overboard and builds something offensive like a giant sign that says " Kill all *blank*", If someone is being abusive we have the right to tell them to take it down but if someone is building something we consider ugly we should keep our mouths shut.

Also, if someone isn't online much or hasn't been working on the project much it shouldn't be an issue. Projects should be fun, not an obligation. Even if a player can only work on it one day a week or feels like putting just a couple hours effort in to it, they should still be encouraged to be part of the project so that they will feel like part of the community. There should be no timeline or rush to finish. That takes the fun out of the whole thing. If someone leaves their project half finished for weeks we could ask them if they are going to finish it or if we should finish it for them, but we should never hint to someone to *get back to work*.

Maybe we should change the rules about doing only one community project at a time. If Garrik feels we need to hurry up because other people are wanting to start their community projects, then maybe we should allow more than one to be going on at a time. That way we won't feel pressured to hurry up and finish. I see nothing wrong with a community project taking months to complete and progressing slowly. We should build things when we're in the mood, not because we fell like we have to. I know some people enjoy structure and timelines, it makes them feel a sense of accomplishment, but I like feeling freedom for ideas to flow. Maybe I am more artsy-fartsy or something but timelines totally ruin the fun for me and can turn it in to a boring job, not a creative experience. I didn't realize it would be like this. I thought it was going to be a relaxed, work on it when you feel like it, kind of thing and that it would take us months to get to a point where we felt it was finished.




Garrik, maybe you didn't mean to come across as being bossy but that's the way it felt from my perspective. Perhaps you need to learn a new communication style. If you are not meaning to sound like you're telling people what to do, then you should word things differently. For instance, if you felt pressure to hurry up and finish the community project so others could start theirs, or if you were trying to hint to someone to finish what they started building, you could have worded things like this...


"Hey, I am going to be concentrating on the Pirate Cove this weekend if anyone wants to lend a hand. I'd really love to get an area completed so I can feel like I accomplished something. If anyone wants to come hang out with me and finish the area, or donate materials I would really appreciate that."



That is a very non-bossy way of wording things and a polite way of hinting to people that you'd like to hurry things along s bit. If you had worded it that way I wouldn't have gotten offended and would have stopped what I was doing to come help you finish up an area. I wouldn't have taken offense at that in the slightest. The way you worded it though, it was an order. I know you kind of think you're the boss since you are the one who wanted to start the project but I don't think any one person should be the boss of this kind of project. If we do a project that is more structured, like making a replica of a certain city and someone has blueprints/layouts etc...that would be different. I could see someone needing to be the "boss" of a structured project, but something like the amusement park doesn't seem to be the kind of project that needs one person in charge. In something like the amusement park we should get together and come up with rough ideas about what we want to build, (like what y'all did in the beginning), and then someone agrees to build something and builds it the way they want. Telling someone who is in the middle of a project how you visualized it is rude. If you want something totally different than what they are building, then go build it yourself. There's plenty of room.

Players should feel the freedom to build something according to their tastes and ideals, not according to what the "boss" wanted done. Unless, as I said, it started out as a more structured project. Then it would okay for one person to be telling everyone what style to build in or even to hand out blueprints and have people build exactly to specifications. That would be a totally different kind of community project and everyone would know from the beginning that there was a strict plan to follow and a theme that needed to be adhered to.

I can even understand your desire to hurry things along, even though I disagree with the need. I can still understand why someone else might feel they need to keep others motivated. I could put up with prodding as long as it was worded politely. If someone acts like they are the boss and we are just a bunch of drones I am going to feel oppressed and rebel. Some people don't mind being bossed around, they may actually prefer to be told what to do, but I am a independent kind of person and I hate being bossed around, especially when it comes to artistic expression. It is not artistic expression if someone else is telling you what to do.
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#8 GarrikP

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 10:01 AM

Rayven, I can't defend myself against you, for once you're injured there can be only wrong.
You criticize anyone if you feel they're even in the remote area of insulting someone else, yet in an instant you'll bash and chastise. I've seen you do it against many people, including myself and Ray himself (our admin and your son).
That is not community growth, that's being overbearing and bossy.

You misconstrued my meaning, and now the conflict is half a page long on a thread it shouldn't have been in in the first place. You should have contacted me or gone straight to Ray, or talked to the other people involved in the project, but instead you've written novels on the project thread. Not responsible IMO. And now I'm insulted for your actions and so upset at you that I don't even want to log into the server, was that your goal? Doesn't matter now does it.
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<Profound statement>



#9 Nekcalb

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 10:37 AM

As a great philosopher once put it,

“Criticism is something you can easily avoid by saying nothing, doing nothing, and being nothing.” ~Aristotle

There is nothing wrong with giving a little constructive criticism, being able to accept that everything we do is not perfect pushes us as humans to try harder and think of things we may not have thought of without some criticism.
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Refusing to allow people to be paid less than a living wage preserves to us our own market. There is absolutely no use in producing anything if you gradually reduce the number of people able to buy even the cheapest products. The only way to preserve our markets is to pay an adequate wage. -- Eleanor Roosevelt


#10 RayvenNightsong

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 12:05 PM

Warning: Huge wall of text ahead. Hopefully the last one.


Garrik, all I did was tell you how I felt violated by you and I took up for someone I thought was being mistreated. That is not criticism, it it self defense and defense of someone else.

You are free to call it unfair criticism and go on a personal attack. That's what some people do when their authority is questioned. Go ahead and rage. You are free to choose your path in life. I will respect your right to feel any way you choose to feel as long as your actions and words do not violate someone else. I have the right to write pages of *criticism* in this thread if I want to. It is not your thread and you do not have the right to decide what we have the right to write. In other word, you're doing it again.

You are not going to win this. When I feel someone is a bully I will be the first one out there fighting them and I NEVER back down when I feel I am right. I feel I am right, you feel I am wrong, we can just leave it at that and change the subject. The world will not stop spinning because we butted heads. I set boundaries and I am pretty sure you won't cross them again. You will avoid me at all costs and you will go out of your way to make sure you don't make anyone else feel bossed around, so yes, I got what I set out to get.

It's okay if you stay mad at me. It's okay if you hate me. You own your feelings and you have the right to them. I feel I was right for speaking up. You don't. Bottom line is, if I am right and you're bossy, you will stop doing it, therefor I protected myself and others who may be too shy to speak up. ( I may have assumed other people were bothered and they weren't, but my heart was in the right place.) If I am wrong and you're not bossy, nothing will change other than people thinking I overreacted. That's not the end of the world. There's always a chance I did overreact. If I did it isn't that big of a deal. I felt bossed around, I felt someone else was being mistreated, I spoke up and told you how I felt. At first I did it in a mild manner, then you blew me off so I slapped you upside the head in a blunt, *rude* manner. Kind of like how someone might ask a person to stop punching them in the arm and the other person keeps doing it and then the first person hauls off and punches the second person. Then the second person gets mad and says "Why are you such a jerk?" It's all about perspective.

I know you're really angry right now. No one likes to be criticized. I don't want you to leave the server. I just wanted you to chill out and stop being so serious about the community project and to stop being bossy. That doesn't mean I hate you because you're kind of bossy. One personality trait doesn't make a whole person. We all have traits that aren't so great. I have tons, and I know what they are. One trait is just a single thread in the tapestry of who we are. I don't dislike someone just because of one trait. There are things about you I like too. You are very smart and organized. Even the trait of being a control freak can be a great thing in the right environment. I am a control freak too, so is Ray, big time. That's why he runs servers instead of playing on someone Else's. Being a control freak is awesome in some situations. If I were planning a survival bunker and needed help, I would definitely trust you to do some of the planning. I know you'd do a thorough job and you could be depended on to finish it. But I wouldn't want you to run the children's craft corner because you might crush their creativity. You are one of those people who wants things to be done "right" and would try to teach the kids to do the craft project "the right way". You wouldn't even realize you were being mean until someone stormed off crying. It's not that you would purposely be being mean, you would just be focused on doing it "right" because otherwise you would feel like a big failure. You would be trying to do the right thing, but in the process you might hurt someone's feelings. That is what happened here on the server. You were not trying to be bossy, but to me you were and it took away the fun.

Being a control freak is not a bad thing. It is situational. I am control freak about trying to control people's behavior. I overdo it at times. (Just ask Ray). I am not the slightest bit controlling when I am involved in a project because I don't care about *things*. I focus on people and feelings, so I overdo it trying to make people get along and stop being mean to each other. I am the one who would see two people arguing and try to force them to sit down and talk about how they feel. That trait of mine can seriously annoy people. It is one of those traits that can be good, or bad, depending on the situation. I nag people if I think they are being insensitive or abusive. Sometimes I have the right to speak up and other times I stick my nose in where it isn't wanted. It is part of who I am and and I accept it. I try to learn to control that trait and make sure I am speaking up only when appropriate. I feel this situation was appropriate. You have the right to disagree though. You have the right to feel the way you want to feel.

I hope you do not leave the server. Maybe after you calm down and the self defense reaction dies down you will decide to stay.
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#11 quickgroth

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 07:27 PM

Whatever happens, Garrik giving up or not, we should still keep this community project up and running. Even if we have to get a new coordinator. We have already built a lot so far, and I don't really want it to go to waste. People have donated a lot of their own materials for this project (and donated a lot of their time). I just don't want it to go to waste.
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#12 GarrikP

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 07:35 PM

Wow... I never said anything about quitting, just that I didn't feel like logging in. Talk about feeling insulted...
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<Profound statement>



#13 quickgroth

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 08:25 PM

I never said you would quit. What I was meaning by the post was that if you weren't going to be involved with the project anymore, we had a backup plan. I'm sorry if I somehow insulted you by saying that.
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#14 quickgroth

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 08:25 PM

I never said you would quit. What I was meaning by the post was that if you weren't going to be involved with the project anymore, we had a backup plan. I'm sorry if I somehow insulted you by saying that.
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#15 quickgroth

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 08:26 PM

Sorry for the double post. My mouse is kind of glitchy :S
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#16 RayvenNightsong

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 09:15 PM

QG, don't apologize to him. ( A certain scene from Pitch Black just jumped into my head). Do not feel like you said anything wrong, you did not.

The way he worded it sounded like he was quitting. He has no justifiable reason to feel insulted because we misunderstood him. He is just dragging this on and wanting to feel like a victim. His pride is bruised. He will get over it.
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#17 quickgroth

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 10:28 PM

I don't like picking sides in these kinks of fights. I am considerate to whoever; if they are being asses or not, if they were actually offended or they are just faking to feel like a victim. That was how I was raised. Like I said, I am not looking for a fight.
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#18 RayvenNightsong

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 10:58 PM

I don't like picking sides in these kinks of fights. I am considerate to whoever; if they are being asses or not, if they were actually offended or they are just faking to feel like a victim. That was how I was raised. Like I said, I am not looking for a fight.


Okay, gotcha. I set my boundaries and if you are feeling okay with things, then as far as I'm concerned the matter is closed.
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