EnglishMaster

The last thing I had to say may be found here, if any of you have the wherewithal to read the Truth anymore.

SoonerDead, I can definitely respect your even keel throughout this whole discussion - I even allude to your prior serenity in the post that the above is a link to.  As a debater I now respect, allow me to apologize in advance for what will seem like a name I've called you.  My blog tends to be rife with invective, but that's why I have as many readers as I do.  I think we shall not agree, but I do respect the manner in which you debate.  You are the single person that has maintained it (other than perhaps Void_Chameleon, but he's not yet a member) here.  That is truly laudable.

Anyway, I'm out, everyone.  Have fun with your server.

Also, just a point of curiosity for me. What's your rationale for explaining people who state they are happily married and are insistent that their experience of marriage is different from your own? I'm not challenging your opinion, I'm more just curious how you rationalize your viewpoint.

All right - one more, but that's it.   ;)

My view of happy marriages is almost akin to what an avid motorcycle rider once told me about riding motorcycles - "There are three kinds of riders: ones that haven't been down yet, ones that have been down and have gotten back up, and ones that have been down and haven't gotten back up."

It is oddly analogous to the most cynical of my views on marriage... everyone is going down.  Just because they haven't yet is no indication of immunity to it in the future.  Heck, statistically, it makes it even more likely.

I will say this, though... I do believe that - even among Western marriages - there are truly happy ones.  (I'd say they're the exception, as the exception proves the rule.)  Of those, I'd say a genuine 5% are truly happy - I'd venture a guess that most of those were married under a different social contract altogether - perhaps in the 50s, even though that generation of married couples is dying out.  I'd say the remaining 95% are delusional in some way - either by denial of the social morass in which they trudge, or devoutly religious - which, statistically, are the marriages that tend to last the longest.

Whether by delusion or actual fact, I do not begrudge these couples their bliss.  I'm not that jaded!  Those marriages that would call themselves "happy" really are living the American fairy tale, and I wish nothing less for them than that it could last as long as possible.

You know, unless they're jerks.  XD

I get what you're saying, Void_Chameleon, and I respect the tone you've used.

As you appear to be the last person not attempting to "get my (unobtainable) goat", I wanted you to be the last person to which I intend to respond in this thread.

Englishmaster, I applaud you for your honesty on this thread. I think that it's important though to acknowledge that you have posted something very culturally deviant

It's not "deviant" to be different - unless you're referring to my very first post, which even I admitted is a trifle "amoral".  If you mean to assign morality to the opinions that followed, then (and it still confounds me that people don't get this) that in and of itself is being closed-minded.  If the first reaction you have to something is to call it "bad", rather than honestly dispute its validity, then you're not discussing, you're pointing fingers.

If this weren't the last I meant to say in this thread, I would have said: "All right - I've said that an economic agreement (marriage) in which one party does not (or does not even intend to) hold up their end of it is fraudulent.  Explain how it's not."  If you could formulate some way in which the statement is false by fact or precedent, then I'd be more inclined to think of you (not you, per se, just everyone that's been so busy slinging mud around here) as an honest debater.

and thus controversial from the norm of our server. I feel that if you want to join this server and be greeted somewhat warmly by its people, you will have to show people that you not only have maturity but a level of maturity capable of mitigating the effects of having such a controversial viewpoint.

That also seems hypocritical and exclusive in a way that's not "Let's keep out kids and griefers." righteous, but myopic to the point of excluding everyone that doesn't exactly share the community's opinions.  Labeling someone as controversial who started off meaning to openly discuss something - answering a bait question that someone with less than pure intentions offered up - is not tolerant, inclusive, or mature... as you would have any random applicant believe is possible here.

For me, this translates to a number of factors. One that you have succeeded on is initially stating that you had no intention of creating a flame war or starting a heated argument over your viewpoints.

And I didn't - it was others' insecurities over the subject matter that caused the hivemind here to gang up on me.

Another is addressing the concern with how you will treat women on the server. You have done this to some extent, but your answer worries me to some extent as it implies toleration not respect or kindness toward your fellow players.

Let me ask you something - do you "respect" or "treat with kindness" the person that you argue with about heated topics at work?  The common answer is "No."  No one expects you to.  Respect is earned (and not many with opposing convictions ever feel that for their counterparts), and kindness is for people with whom you are intimate friends.  For acquaintances of opposing arguments, you treat them with tolerance and civility - and if you're honest with yourself, you know that that's how you treat the majority of those people at your job.  It's how we have a civilization, and not chaos.

Also, it's more than a little hypocritical to ask for something one is not willing to also give.  Think about that.

We're not Care Bears.  We're humans.  We don't always get along, and to expect us to throw our convictions out the window for the "common good" is Socialism.  Last I checked, that's not a popular concept in America.

The third is that your viewpoint is going to evoke reactions whether you like it or not, and for better or for worse it is on you to take the high road when that happens and not fuel a flame war.

To some extent, you're right.  But I am a prideful creature - it's part and parcel with Narcissism, which I was completely up-front about.  If I were to come on this server (Which, let's face it, I don't seriously still think is possible.), I'd likely just stay out of conversations about marriage.  It's obviously a subject upon which I and the vocal majority disagree.

The other part that worries me is that you tend to talk in what feels like absolutes. It does not feel like you are stating "this is my opinion and you are allowed to feel however you want and I won't think less of you for it". Instead I feel like you are saying "this is the way the world is and if you think otherwise you are an idiot." That does not imply respect nor tolerance toward others and it's disconcerting.

Two things:

1) I'm the ONLY one talking in absolutes here?  You can't possibly be that blind.  Everyone is talking in absolutes; the reason you find fault with my doing so is that you disagree with me... simple as that.

2) These aren't merely opinions.  Not only have I stated facts that no one has refuted with opposing facts, but I quite clearly said earlier that these were my convictions.  If someone is truly convinced of something, they speak in absolutes.  Try telling a Christian that he's wrong for believing in Jesus, and see how quickly they tell you that (without empirical proof) they believe for a fact that he is real, talks to them, etc., etc.  It's their conviction - and people dealing in convictions deal in absolutes.

It's not that they're intolerant, it's that they've not been convinced of anything else.  That's what conviction is.

Anyway, I just wanted to give my two cents. I don't really care how others feel about marriage or women. I do care though about respect and people being able to step beyond their views to treat others as decent human beings. As such, I thought it was important to share my own concerns about your disposition. Also, I know I'm not the guy who decides whether you get into the server. I just know if I was running this server, these are the things I'd be worried about.

I appreciate the fact that you took the time to calmly give your "two cents", as you put it.  I sincerely do.  Heck, that's why I responded to you alone.

Like I said, respect is earned, but tolerance and civility can be handed out even to the bitterest of rivals.  That's mature; no thinking person should have a problem with that.

I hope I've adequately addressed your concerns, and though I doubt I've fully laid your worries to rest, I hope you at least more fully understand where I'm coming from.  I'm nothing if not honest.

It kind of just changes the genre of fiction.

To use up your body as you use up your power was the idea in The Covenant, if you've ever seen it.

Pretty decent flick, if you can put up with all the teen angst and the villain monologue-ing.   ;)

Having said I'd leave this one be... I do have one parting comment.

 

You are welcome to your opinions, and to express them here. Some people might even like to discuss them with you.

 

The issue I have is that, should you be accepted to the server, your attitude to women is likely to influence how you interact with the female members of 60G.

 

"As for a wife questioning her husband, she should have the opportunity to do that... as long as she defers to his final judgment on the matter.  If she can convince him of a better way, great.  If not, she should be prepared to do as the head of the household directs.  I realize that this is an entirely foreign concept to Western audiences, so I don't expect it to be met with acceptance."

 

I'm guessing that your attitude to women within marriage probably spills over into your dealings with those women you meet outside of marriage.

 

Not something I'd like to see on the server...

That is an incorrect assumption, Plank.

I treat women on the servers upon which I play as I would my own mother - whom I often disagree with, but with whom I always find a place of peace.  We have both learned well the lesson of agreeing to disagree.

And we love each other, regardless... generously.